Gula Tech Cyber Fiction - Episode #1 - Cyndi Gula

In our first ever "Gula Tech Cyber Fiction" show, Ron Gula interviews Cyndi Gula about her cybersecurity entrepreneur background, Data Care and the Gula Tech Foundation - including tips for the upcoming January 4th, 2021 grant applicants.

Episode #1 Transcript

Ron Gula: This is Ron Gula with episode one of the Gula Tech Cyber Fiction show. We are Ron and Cyndi Gula. We are going to be interviewing Cyndi today, but this is since this is our first episode, we’re going to talk a little bit about Gula Tech Adventures. And we're going to talk a little bit about some of the news, which is going on right now, such as the hack, the largest hack of the century - Solar Winds.
So Gula Tech Adventures is a company that Cyndi and I started to basically invest in people and technology in both companies and non-profits, that helps the defend the nation in cyberspace. We care very deeply about defending the nation and keeping your data secure. And we're also filming this right now in December of 2020, right after just about a week of news of the Solar Winds hack and the FireEye hack.
And a lot of folks have asked us kind of, what do we have to say about this? And I'm just going to say yes, it is very, very difficult to defend your network from nation state attacks. But you shouldn't give up. You shouldn't do nothing. I wrote a blog post on this. And I'll put this in the show notes called the
cyber poverty line, which basically says no matter what size business you are, you have to do both hygiene and hunting and hygiene is all the good stuff.
Defense patching, intrusion detection, and prevention, trying to keep control of your assets, all that awesome NIST cybersecurity framework stuff. And on the hunting side. You have to assume that hackers are going to get through, you have to hunt on your network. And if you don't have that hunting, then you're never going to detect things like the Solar Winds attack.
So having said that. Today we are going to be interviewing Cyndi Gula. Cyndi is not only my co-founder at Gula Tech Adventures, but she has also been with me through my entire [00:02:00] cyber journey. And we've done a number of great things together. We're going to talk about her history as a, as an entrepreneur, as an operations genius.
And we're also going to talk about. Our new
Gula Tech Foundation. And we're also going to talk about the Data Care initiatives. So we have a lot to get into today. Cyndi Gula, how are you?
Cyndi Gula: I'm doing good, Ron. Wow. Operation genius. I think I have to add that one to my, my LinkedIn profile. It's
Ron Gula: it's easy to compliment people.
It's hard to put those compliments on your LinkedIn profile. So Cyndi, you are a ceramic engineer.
Cyndi Gula: My degree is in glass engineering, science. So at a early age, math science, very easy came easy to me. I really enjoyed it. And I pursued engineering, uh, ended up at Syracuse, China making led free glaze. And that's where Ron and I met several years ago.
Ron Gula: And you said, [00:03:00] yes, we're obviously married and we're not brother and sister,
Cyndi Gula: but to say voluntarily related.
Ron Gula: That's um, that's, that's definitely a good way to describe our, uh, our relationship. Um, you said yes. When I asked you to get married, but you also said yes. When I came home one day and said, Hey, I have an idea to start it.
Cyndi Gula: Yeah. That was, uh, pretty exciting back in late nineties. And, uh, I figured all the business people. That, uh, I had gone to school with still graduated and I saw all they did with respect to, uh, how it, well engineering is different than, than business. But anyway, we got an accountant, got a lawyer and, um, really sat down and thought about it and listened to what we were told, listened how to run the company, what to do, build a good foundation.
Listen. Execute and, and report. So that's how we ran the first company. And
Ron Gula: so within 18 months we [00:04:00] had six employees and we had site licenses at some banks and some, some, some military agencies. And that was, that was excellent. And how did you feel being an entrepreneur? And I'm not going to say you're not technical, but you're not you.
Weren't the one writing the code and chasing the hackers. You have a word that you like to call folks who kind of enable things behind the scenes and startups.
Cyndi Gula: Yeah. So I, uh, really, again, foundation engineering really taught me how to learn and that's where I was really good at listening. And so I think there's a lot of us out there that it's called silent entrepreneurs.
We're the ones that are in the background. We take that chance just as much as the people who are out talking, but that's not where our comfort level is. It's, we're really building that. Good foundation, building those companies so that we can continue to thrive and create and pivot when necessary. So you
Ron Gula: had your act together at network security wizards when and Enterasys Networks did due diligence on us.
It took them less than half a day to kind of go [00:05:00] through all of our books, which was, which was really good. Um, and then you ended up working there for a couple of years at, in terraces. What was some of the lessons you learned working at a publicly traded international. Networking company.
Cyndi Gula: Well, in addition to all of those things, it was, we were a software company and I'd grown up in the cyber world in software.
So they were a hardware company. So we learned a lot about hardware, how customers expected software to delivered on hardware, how to actually, um, track that update. What were the, the pitfalls potentially. And, uh, we really did a good job maneuvering through the differences and, and making. The hardware and software, um, work together, update and service the customers as best
Ron Gula: possible.
And while we were working with Interra assists, we met, uh, Jack Hufford. Uh, Jack was on the acquisition team for, Enterasys Networks and we developed a relationship [00:06:00] with him and it all kind of worked out that we all founded Tenable Network Security together. So, Cyndi, what was it like to kind of start a startup and go to a large commercial company and then jump right back into it again.
Cyndi Gula: Yeah, that's what I think one of the most exciting things was is the startup culture. It's just, it's fresh. It's fun. It's different every day. So in 2002, when we started Tenable, um, again, not writing the code directly, but there's plenty of things that need to be done in the company. You have HR legal, um, facilities.
Operations sales, operations, how everything kind of works. And that's just, you know, it was so exciting. It was great to see the growth, hiring new people, getting, getting to know the, um, employees that worked with us. It was all really exciting. So that's rarely, I think why. We really wanted to start Gulaa Tech Adventures and really help share [00:07:00] that experience and allow other people to experience what we had gone through.
And if we could give advice where they would go to listen and maybe avoid some of the pitfalls, that would be great. But again, it's just, it was such an exciting journey. We want to give that back to other people.
Ron Gula: Excellent. Well, we're going to go in, in a future podcast about, um, more of the lessons learned from, uh, from Tenable Network Security.
Um, so we were at Tenable for about about 16 years and, um, you know, when we left there, we didn't start Gula Tech Adventures right away. We knew, as you said that you wanted to give back, um, but why the name Gula Tech Adventures.
Cyndi Gula: Well, Gula Tech Adventures really came from an idea that Gula tech, we really like that.
But. When you do the, um, venture capital venture Gula Tech Venture just seemed too stuffy. And we knew we were more than just venture capital. We knew we had already been involved in nonprofits. We had been [00:08:00] involved in policy, workforce development. So all of these things kind of made it more like an adventure.
And so it didn't hurt that the initials are GTA with our two teenage sons. So that got us some credit there too.
Ron Gula: Grand Theft Auto of course, no copyright violations there, anything that's that's excellent. Um, can you talk a bit more about the balance with Gula Tech Adventures between investing non-profits and some of the work we do with policy and politicians?
Cyndi Gula: Yeah, it's almost like a three-legged stool. When you think about the idea that we need to have great companies out there innovating and creating and developing that new technology, because everything is constantly changing, including the attack vectors and the attackers, therefore, the way you defend needs to be updated and upgraded and move at the speed of trust.
As one of my friends like to say, and. So that's obvious for the venture capital side, but without that, we still [00:09:00] need the involvement of nonprofits. I mean, there companies as well, and they're working towards the greater good, it's almost a little more approachable for the public to go with a nonprofit or to be involved in a nonprofit, whether they're working on workforce development, uh, policy, um, just even, um, think tanks.
With respect to how things are going to work or the brand new, next technology that's in universities. So there's plenty of areas that nonprofits are so beneficial to what we are doing in the commercial world. And then policy policy is one of the trickier ones that we have to deal with because the technology is moving so fast that we have to really.
Get a way for the public to get engaged, the policymakers, to get engaged and the technologies too technologist to get engaged to the we're all talking the same language.
Ron Gula: And is there some overlap in the way you look at nonprofits and evaluate their effectiveness in the [00:10:00] same way you might look at a cybersecurity commercial startup?
Cyndi Gula: Well, that's one of the things that we really started to look at that. Uh, there is not that much difference between a non-profit the way they're run. Um, and with this, when they start up like a startup, you need seed, well, you need an idea, then you need the great people behind it. Then you need some funding to get started.
Now, the difference between maybe a commercial and a nonprofit is where that funding comes from, but the bigger difference is what the anticipation and expectation of that funding gets you. And with a for-profit. Obviously profit is the driving factor of that, but there's still, that are similar motion for nonprofits.
They have to start, they have to have start funding. They have to have seed funding to get to that next level. And we really think that, uh, there's not that much difference that there is a lot of similarities between. For-profit companies and nonprofits, the way they operate.
Ron Gula: And I've, I've [00:11:00] logged at the Gula Tech, uh, blog about, uh, five questions that we always ask, uh, cybersecurity startups.
Um, do you think these five questions do, do they apply to nonprofits?
Cyndi Gula: Absolutely. Absolutely. They do. I mean, the, the, the five there's pretty basic because everybody, every company needs to understand this for their mission. What do you do? How do you do it? What problem do you solve? How do you solve it?
Give some proof of that you are successful and how your approach is being, um, successful in proving that, um, what are you going to do with funding? Like how is that going to help you either get to the next level? Um, but you need to understand what you need to do with that funding. And then what is success look like?
What does it look like for you to be successful? It's
Ron Gula: one of the things when, when Cyndi and I talk about, uh, giving back. To, to folks it's helping them define that impact that they can [00:12:00] have, you know, what's that realistic vision of success. Can we help them get a quick win? Can we help them get a huge home run?
But often don't, don't you find that people who start up, they don't know what their limit really, really is. And because of that, it's hard to kind of. Help them on that journey.
Cyndi Gula: Absolutely. I mean, even today, we're, we're not sure where Gula Tech Cyber Fiction's going to go, but you got to start somewhere, but you still have to have a fundamental idea of why and why you're doing things.
You need to make sure that there's some S uh, ability to sustain and passion behind the, the why, and to see it through. But you do need to understand the, the, the why you're doing it. And if it is. Because, you know, you want your own, you know, profitability. That's great, but just be honest about it, if it's because you're serving others, that's also great, but be honest about it and you can mix the two.
I mean, it's great that society [00:13:00] today is really starting to mix the two, um, together, but again, just be honest and, and understand and be able to articulate what you want out of why you're doing what you're doing.
Ron Gula: So I want to switch gears a little bit to a concept that you kind of coined called Data Care.
Uh, Data Care is this concept that Cyndi came up with where we really want to reimagine. What cybersecurity as an industry really is for, for two main aspects. One to kind of make it more inclusive, to recruit folks from all walks of life, to this career field, and the second thing to inspire responsibility for the, for the general public, so that they just don't view it as, as somebody else.
So how did you come up with Data Care and where are we at? As far as getting the word out and changing that, uh, I'm starting to see people on LinkedIn and Twitter saying Data Care. It's great.
Cyndi Gula: Yeah. The, the idea really came from being asked, how do we get more women in cybersecurity [00:14:00] and having kind of come into the industry by osmosis and not by choice?
I really started asking myself, well, that's a really good question. And then. I asked him would my 17 year old self enter cybersecurity, even knowing everything that I know today and the answer was no, because the way it's pitched it's, it's from an idea of cybersecurity, which is somebody else's problem.
But also it's an imagining. That you have this entire Boulder like Atlas and you put it on your, your, your shoulder and you're in, you're walking in your hoodie all by yourself and you're slugging through the cybersecurity world and it doesn't seem to be ever, ever had an end. It doesn't seem like there's ever any, um, ability to have success.
And so I really started thinking about it. You know, when I was growing up health care didn't exist either. It was called the medical field and people who were drawn to the medical field wanted to be a doctor or nurse, but their really [00:15:00] wasn't a lot of room for everybody else. When they shifted to healthcare, it actually made it personal.
It made people have personal responsibility for their health and involved in their decisions. And it also brought in the legal aspects, the policy aspects, the other people who, you know, billing, working around healthcare without needing to be a doctor. And so I said, how can we do that for the cyber industry?
And that's where really, if you fundamentally boil it down, it's. All about our data. It's about your data, your digital data online. And if we can make that personal to people and have them understand that there's some responsibility, there's some capability that they can have, and they can do small steps to protect themselves.
Then we're going a long way in the industry to be, um, able. To get our government and, uh, personal responsibility all on the same page regarding what this word, cyber and cyber security really means.
Ron Gula: How [00:16:00] does the Data Care concept make it easier to recruit, uh, women, uh, black and just underrepresented people to the cybersecurity career?
Cyndi Gula: Yeah. When, when you say cybersecurity again, it's this fictional or this thought that it's somebody else's responsibility. And right now in the industry that somebody else might not look like women. Or under representative, um, people because, or, or, or minorities, because that's not what is there. So if we say Data Care and I make it personal, it becomes this idea that you’re protecting yourself and it's not necessarily.
What everybody else looks like. It's, it's a journey that you're going to take and a path that you have responsibility for. And the idea that data is out there, and it's not going away, it's only going to grow and there's only going to be more and more access to it. Hopefully with 5g, uh, broadband into the rural areas, uh, [00:17:00] better access in into the, the cities.
Everybody is going to be more digitally connected. So we have to capture those imaginations of those people. When they're getting connected that they have data that's online and what are they going to do to protect it.
Ron Gula: And, you know, the cybersecurity career field really does a good job of elevating our experts and folks who, frankly, there's a lot of, a lot of white men in there, even though most of my mentors were, were, uh, were, were women.
Um, but the, the question I have for you is if you want to enter into the Data Care field, you don't necessarily have to be an expert first, right? It's kind of like the medical field. You don't really have to be a brain surgeon before you can put a, put a bandaid on, does this reduce the barrier to entry for people?
Cyndi Gula: Absolutely. From a point of view of Data Care, again, keep in mind we have first aid, we have the idea of learning CPR. What do you do until you can get to that expert to help, to do, to [00:18:00] get more assistance. We need that to develop a similar idea. In the cyber digital world and, and make people a little bit more, um, understanding of their data and how, and what they can do.
You can start a little bit, you can, what can I do look online? I can update my, my, um, software. Maybe don't download that free app that you don't know what they do with your data. And then, you know, the password managers, once you start pulling that thread, you realize it's not as hard as it makes it seem.
But that when you say cybersecurity, that it has to be this expert, there's many smaller steps. And one of the beauties of cybersecurity is you can come at it from all different angles. Again, I was a materials engineer and I came into cybersecurity. My director of, of operation or engineering came from a finance degree.
So there's, there's various ways that you can come into this industry in a very [00:19:00] Uh, entry level. And work your way up to become an expert all on your own. You don't need additional certifications. You don't need additional, um, uh, um, degrees into that, but there's so many different ways that you can, you can come at cybersecurity.
You don't have to be a coder. A lot of people, we need policy makers. We meet people that understand how policy works. We need architects, right? You might not be able to code anything, but you know how the data flows and you know, where it goes and you know, where it should be and how to define what, um, a responsible way to act.
We need people to teach. We need people to, to, uh, sell and, and make people understand why this is important. And so there's so many different areas and avenues to get into cyber everybody's in cyber. Pretty much now in, in the United States, they just don't understand how to get further involved.
Ron Gula: Well, then the last aspect of, uh, of [00:20:00] Data Care, Is this concept of personal responsibility.
And, and more than once we've been out talking to non-technical people, dentists, priests, politicians, and whatnot, and, and you've experienced this where they just don't think it's their responsibility. How does, how does Data Care impact that?
Cyndi Gula: Yeah. When you say again, cybersecurity at somebody else, if you ask a dentist, Hey, what are you doing to, for your cybersecurity?
They're like, Oh, we might have hired, you know, this particular, uh, outsourced project. But then when you ask them, what are you doing with my data? How are you protecting my data? That becomes very personal, even to the person who's. I'm honored, I guess, enough to have your data. So the idea that that is a lot more personal and there is not somebody else's responsibility at the end of the day.
If I give you my data, there should be some expectation that you are placing to protect that data. And when cyber security is said, [00:21:00] you kind of just think of the protection piece, but you really have to understand that cybersecurity is personal. It's about privacy. And then it's about protection in all three of those things is something that everybody needs to be able to understand and have a voice regarding how the policy, the regulation and the expectation of who owns that data who uses that data and how that data gets used.
Ron Gula: So to learn more about this, we've got a really excellent blog, uh, at the Gula tech blog, uh, called data. Karen's where it linked right up her homepage. But this will kind of lead us into a discussion about our new Gula Tech Foundation. Um, as we developed the Data Care concept, we interacted with a number of different people in the industry.
We're very passionate about this, and a lot of them joined us on our grant advisory board from the Gula Tech Foundation. Uh, anybody want to thank or, or, or talk about on, on that.
Cyndi Gula: Yeah, very excited about the grant advisory [00:22:00] board. It's very impressive, Ron and I worked really hard to try to make sure that we have a diverse amount of people, but not just about, you know, men and women, not just about white and, and African-American or that, but the background, where did they come up?
If they grew up rural, they grew up in the city. If it's more urban, what, uh, experiences they had. Um, because everybody, again, It cyber is so personal that you, we have to be able to articulate a way to, um, make it. More approachable to everybody. And until you hear people's stories, you don't understand necessarily why they make the decisions they make, why they choose either the products or the apps or the processes that they use.
And it really does help understand now, as far as one person on, on the, um, advisory board, that wouldn't be fair, uh, from, from a standpoint of me calling either month. All wonderful. And I'm looking very excited to work [00:23:00] with them. I think the most exciting part is going to be, um, choosing the themes with the advisory board and really going through these, um, uh, submissions and applications to see what resonates with everybody, because the passion is, is all over the place.
Ron Gula: All right. So let's, let's back up a minute. We jumped right into the, uh, the foundation. So what is the Gula Tech Foundation?
Cyndi Gula: The Gula Tech Foundation is another arm of the Gula Tech Adventure that we have. We do invest in venture capital in startup companies. We are involved in policy and workforce development with, um, Uh, various areas of nonprofits and other things.
So we really wanted to have a way to amplify the great work of cyber nonprofits and treat them very similarly when we have our startup companies and try to, um, Get them out there, the great work that they're doing, [00:24:00] amplify their message, and really push them to the test to try to get them to the next level.
So we are going to give million dollar per themed, um, grant submission, and the themes are going to come up with us and the, and the board we're going to come up with different themes. Um, Maybe, you know, several times a year, but we haven't determined how much that is yet. And we are going to go out and again, try to treat non-profits in the similar way as startups, we want to deliver seed investment, or maybe series a investment, try to take them to the next level.
Amplify their message of what they're trying to do. And this is a nationwide effort. So we're trying to make sure that people who are in the cyber industry know about the cyber, um, non-profits and maybe help get involved to increase the message and the ability to deliver cybersecurity Data Care for, for everybody and, and really get the [00:25:00] public involved in their own data.
So we
Ron Gula: announced, uh, last week, Our grant, uh, topic for 2021 January. Um, can you tell us a bit more about that?
Cyndi Gula: Yeah. So January 4th, 2020, we are grants
Ron Gula: 2021,
Cyndi Gula: 2021. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I always mess that up when we, we switch a year, but 2021, the grant submission will be open and it's for nonprofits that are targeted to getting African-American engagement in cybersecurity.
One of the things I think Ron and I. Um, helps us be successful is we know what we know and we know what we don't know. And the unfortunate reality is we know we don't have enough African-American representation, cybersecurity, but we don't know how to fix that. And so there's so many great and wonderful people in mission and, and attention to this that we're trying to make sure that we find at least three, um, to it's [00:26:00] going to be a competitive.
A grant process again, the five slide deck. What problem do you solve? How do you solve it? Show me some proof that you've been able to solve the problem. What are you going to do with the funding and what does success look like? And we're going to grant the first place winner $500,000, the second $300,000.
And the third $200,000 generally in early March, because we're going to have February for the grant advisory board, um, for us to collect all the data that it was submitted and really, uh, have a great conversation regarding. Why and who and, and what is going to, um, resonate to, to be the winners. And we are anticipating to be a very public announcements regarding the winners of these awards as
Ron Gula: well.
So I think you're pretty humble all to say that we don't know how to, how to fix that. And that's, that takes a lot of humility to do that, but we we've been trying. Right. So you're on the, uh, AOK uh, advisory [00:27:00] board. No, you're the chair of that.
Cyndi Gula: I'm the chair
Ron Gula: chair of that. And that targets, uh, not necessarily African-Americans, but a lot of kids who just need, need extra help in K through 12.
Uh, you're also in Howard County, you do two different boards, right? You do the equal opportunity business. For commission, as well as the Howard County economic development authority, which helps a lot of different, different folks. And then you've gone with me several times, oftentimes by yourself, um, to speak at both year up and then power.
Uh, types of, uh, training situations for their classrooms, for the, for the kids.
Cyndi Gula: And that's why I have so much hope. I mean, going to empower in Europe and just seeing the, the, uh, excitement and the, uh, the hope and the, the ability and the capability. I mean, there's so much untapped. Talent out there. We just need more.
We need more people. We need more, um, movement forward. We need more [00:28:00] funding, whatever it takes. We just need more there. The talent is there. We just need to tap it. And, and again, this grant process is not local where you currently live in around Baltimore, Maryland. It is not local to this. We're hoping maybe a grant theme would be local, maybe, you know, go to different cities to see what different cities are doing.
And, and you know, what, if there's a great idea out there and just because it happens to be local and somebody else says, Hey, that's a great idea. Let me quote unquote, steal that idea and replicate it somewhere else. Great. You know, we just need more.
Ron Gula: Excellent. So, uh, any tips for people who are applying for the January 4th, uh, grant submission process, again, we've framed this in our five questions, right?
So how do you, what problem do you solve all the way up to what's your vision of success? What kind of tips do you have for folks?
Cyndi Gula: Yeah. Um, again, I would do some research look at our grant advisory board. Um, we're all relatively, very technical. So we don't, you [00:29:00] don't need to spend a lot of time, uh, explaining the issue to us.
We know what the issue is, and so really go deep and, and passionate. About how you're solving that. Because again, in cybersecurity, it's all about trust. It's about, uh, speed and it's about capability. And the more you can demonstrate that you can satisfy these three. Hi, um, Uh, functioning topics. That would be great.
Again, it's competitive need to show your passion show, show the, the, the, the, uh, what and how in an efficient way that you're going to be able to solve, uh, some of these issues. And again, you know, not everybody's going to be a winner, but it might resonate with one of our, um, advisory board that they might actually be able to, um, you know, Provide some other, uh, ideas and how to best, best serve your mission.
And so, again, the, [00:30:00] you know, it's great that. Background on who's developing it and maybe why, but we can do our own research when we're interested. We'll dig deep. We'll be looking at your website. We'll be looking at anything you've posted anything out there. So you don't need to spend time necessarily rehashing everything that's out there, but really let us see your passion.
Let us understand. How you're going to solve this and, and really, um, you know, if it's disruptive even better, but let's, let's work on this together.
Ron Gula: We, we get a lot of, uh, uh, pitch decks, both for investment and for, you know, to support nonprofits and the first four or five pages of these pitch decks are, you know, talking about the problem.
Um, and without, without trying to be disrespectful, you know, we kind of, we're very aware that there's a dearth of African-Americans in the cyber security community. There's a dearth of, of, uh, cyber attacks out there. That doesn't mean, [00:31:00] you know, that this particular entity deserves investment or deserves, uh, as the most competitive to win a grant.
So I think, uh, when we think about our, our, our board. That they're very technical, like you say, and they're going to want very specifics. How, what problem you solve and how do you solve it? What are those numbers? And, um, can you send, where can people go to learn more before January 4th?
Cyndi Gula: So, uh, our website is Gula tech.
Good, sorry. I should know my own website. It's Gula dot tag. And on the upper, uh, area, you should see foundation. We do have some explanation of the grants as they change over. We'll also explain the new grants, uh, and the cadence of this mission. In general, we're going to announce a grant, have a month of submissions, have a month to process the data.
And then the following month announced the winners. And so keep, keep an eye out for it. If you don't win this time, you might qualify for the next one. [00:32:00] And, um, but if you do win, then you have 18 months until you can submit again for a different grant, but is the website. Um, also you'll find our other, um, companies we've invested in other nonprofits that we're involved in and, um, and the definitely check out our advisors.
Uh, they are all listed on the website of the foundation as well.
Ron Gula: Excellent. Um, well, as we close out, I think, uh, Cyndi and I would like to wish everybody applying for the January 21 grant.
Cyndi Gula: Absolutely. Best of luck looking forward to it.
Ron Gula: And to all, everybody who applies thank you for the work you're already doing.
Uh, hopefully send you and I can, can help you out. Uh, this has been the very, very first episode of the Gula Tech Cyber Fiction, podcast, and show, depending on how you're going to listen to this. Uh, we look forward to [00:33:00] doing many more of these. Thank you very much.